Okay, vegetiables lack a central nervous system, you should know this. Scientists have proven that they don't even know they are alive. They feel NO pain at all. They don't have personalities, feelings.
Animals feel pain. They scream like we do. And believe it or not, they also have personalities.
Vegetarians eat vegetables, they were not put through pain. Animals were. Vegetiables are okay to eat, nothing wrong with it.
I don't get what your seeing..
And I very much doubt that they outlived Americans because of meat.
Jesus christ lady, if your not going to moraly eat your veggies, just eat paper.
Its their perference and beliefs.
You could use some common sense on that question, I don't understand how people see animals the same as vegetables! I don't think that humans are suffering the same atrocious things animals are going through in factory farms, at least not as great of a number anyway. If you want to eat meat then do it! But leave those of us who don't want to alone.
Well, there aren't 50+BILLION different people every year suffering to the extent that animals are in JUST the meat industry. And those are just the ones counted for, let alone the dog meat and horse meat trade and such. Then add in the number of animals being tortured in labs, bearating, moonbears, dog fighting, the everyday stories you hear on the news about animal abuse, the list could go on and on. I feel for humans just as bad for animals but the numbers are far more staggering compared to humans that are suffering similar atrocities that I see the animals as having it worse off. And animals cannot get away at all, I understand a lot of humans can't get away either for whatever reason but they have a better chance of escaping a bad situation than any animal.
I've come across this exact same question three times today. The reason we have no objections to eating vegetables is because vegetables are not sentient.
Contrary to popular belief among omnis, veg(etari)ans actually avoid animal products for a reason, not because we're purists who don't eat anything that's alive.
Animals are SENTIENT - they have the capacity to feel pain and suffer, they have their own natural desires and interests. They are fully aware of their existence.
Plants and fungus are alive but not sentient. They have no central nervous system. If you stick a hot iron on yourself, your dog or cat, a pig, a cow, a chicken, etc. they scream and run away.
If you stick a hot iron on a piece of broccoli, it burns and nothing happens. Most of the so-called "plant-rights" activists are just defensive assholes who want to make animal-rights arguments look silly.
Assuming you really do believe that plants feel pain, what have you done for "plants-rights" lately? You would actually be saving a lot more plants by going not eating meat than by eating meat. Why? Think of the massive amounts of grain that goes into factory farming. Animals don't just eat air, they eat too. In fact, most of the grain produced in the world does not feed humans at all, it feeds cattle and 70% of all third world grain imports gets fed to cattle and not humans.
So, basically I see your point as : Whats the point in being Vegetarian ?
I take the view- its better to save some lives that none , and I do differentiate between plant and animal life. People say " plants are alive too!!!" BUT we WOULD die if we ate nothing, so we have to eat something.
The fact I am vegetarian or not has no bearing on the suffering of other humans in the world, its an unrelated issue to Veg*nism since human suffering is not related to my diet.
I still care about other humans, but that has noting to do with whether I am vegetarian or not. Visa Verse I could be Non- vegetarian and still care about other humans.
Meat is unhealthy for you in the quantities its consumed today, I am 110% certain that the meat consumption of a native American was drastically less that that of a modern American.
"I think people should just respect that plants, animals, and humans are alive "
I do respect that animals are alive, thats why I don't eat them.
Of course all live is important--plants, animals, etc. And of course we need to eat things that were once alive, part of a living thing, or are the product of a living thing in order to survive. The difference between the modern meat industry and eating plants is exactly what you pointed out, though, the horrors of the slaughter houses, combined with the horrible conditions under which animals are raised. Plants aren't subjected to the same horrors, and couldn't experience such horrors, so since we have to eat something organic to survive it makes sense for it to be plants.
And yes, people suffer all over the world as well as animals. So it makes sense for a compassionate person, as much as possible, to avoid supporting industries/governments/policies/etc that lead to human suffering. This is not mutually exclusive from refusing to support the industries that cause animal suffering, however. You can do both, and a compassionate persons should do as much as he or she possibly can to minimize suffering all around.
If you read a book written many decades ago, Frances Moore Lappe's 'Diet for a Small Planet,' I think you'll see why many of us chose this path. It takes many more earth resources to create a serving of animal protein than it does to create vegetable protein. Additionally, one has the option of taking advantage of the burgeoning organic produce market, as compared to the lagging animal breeding. The latter is still mired in pumping food and dairy animals full of growth hormone, antibiotics (due to cramped and filthy living conditions), and feed that's riddled with pesticides. The bad thing is that you eat what the animal eats, which is why so many children are entering puberty -- and having antibiotic resistant maladies -- at an early age.
Vegetarians, in general, do what we do to leave a 'small footprint.' I don't proselytize my dietary choice of 31 years to others, and I take jokes about it in stride. I know I'm doing the best for me, and the planet.
The basic answer is, animals have a central nervous system, feel pain, have thought processes and have a sense of self and community. carrots do not
Generally speaking, commercially reared animals are treated appaulingly
I don't think any vegetarian says its wrong for wild animals to kill and eat animals so am unsure why you raise the point. Just because a cat catched mice does not give mankind the right to abuse milloins of animals every day
You are right, people have been eating meat for centuries. However they have not be caging them up in confined spaces, shipping then live across continents to slaughter houses, feeding them with enriched food made from thier dead relatives nor pumping them with growth foods to make them freaks of nature - there are all modern activities
And your last sentance stumps me, completely
All in all, you have presented a very confused set of unrelated arguements. Shame really, because i'm sure most of us would happily engage in some debate if you were able to put a bit more logic around what you are saying.
Wh don't you re-post each arguement one a time so we can give you detailed answers ?
It may be true that "exsft" was the first person to understand what you meant.....if many people don't undertand you, and only one does, whos fault do you think that is ?? Is it really everyone elses fault and not yours ?
I obviously put human suffering and am concerned about human beings first and foremost. Also, I do not think it is wrong for human beings to consume meat, I just think the process by which it arrives at the plate to be wrong and unnatural. I choose not to support the meat industry, nor do I support the egg or dairy industries.
I think slaughterhouses and mass farming are a human invention and are destroying the environment, plain and simple. Not only are the conditions cruel, they are absolutely unnatural. The amount of energy and grain and water used to produce a pound of beef, for instance, could feed a needy family for a week in an underprivileged country. Here's a question where this was talked about:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;...Not to mention the fact that these animals are not fed a natural diet... when cows are not fed a grass-based diet their multiple stomachs get sick, they produce excess methane, their waste is toxic sludge... the meat industry dumps waste into rivers, streams, etc. without an ethical concern for the environment.
I don't think animals are anyone's to possess and breed and slaughter, I think we are actually taking nature and the way things are supposed to be OUT of the equation by doing so. The world was created over billions of years to be a well-balanced ecosystem and the human race has become like a cockroach infestation on its surface, consuming and destroying everything, infesting everything with our own filth and pollution, destroying one another with our hatred and wars and destroying other species as well - all for profit. Profit, money, greed, that is what our race revolves around, that is what I disagree with.
In the wild, when there IS a natural ecosystem, herbivores (which most predatory animals hunt) are free range. They consume plants with seeds, they make waste and their waste transfers seeds to other areas and the seeds come with their own natural fertilizer - the HEALTHY feces of a free-range animal... the plants they consume therefore have a chance to regrow naturally, without pesticides, without the need for mass farming of plants as well.
In the wild, predators don't hunt for fun or because they feel like it, or because they kind of maybe want a Whopper at 2 am in the morning... they do it out of pure need, when they are hungry or their young are. No other creature on our planet would hoard and "own" their prey, no other creature would disregard the natural functions of an ecosystem or food chain.
I think that the way the world was for Native Americans when it was untouched by the greed of the 'white man' (I hate to say it) was fine by me. I feel that if it was possible to return to a time when we didn't mass-farm and destroy the entire planet with our greedy ways, just so we could have meat and food available ALL the TIME (so much freaking food - do you know that there is close to 4000 calories of food available per person in the United States every given day? That is more than people require!).
We have destroyed what ecosystems were created for, what natural food chains are there for.
On TOP of it all, the meat and dairy industry literally "own" our politicians and endlessly manipulate our government. I would seriously suggest reading "Food Politics" by Dr. Marion Nestle, who has collaborated with the USDA and has written a shocking book about how much of the USDA's decisions are "bought" by the meat and dairy industry.
In fact, I feel that I love human beings and our planet and all its wonders so much that I choose not to participate in many of the things that are destroying it. Isn't it curious that mankind has irreversibly destroyed the planet more in a few thousand years than what has collectively happened (freak meteor accidents and all!) in millions upon millions of years?
You're right. Here's how I think the diet on this planet is evolving:
Paleolithic diet, omnivorous, vegetarian, vegan, raw-vegan (from 50% raw to 100% raw to mono-eating like my daughter), fruitarian, finally breatharian...are just the order of conscience and spiritual evolution. (Sometimes I surprise to see my daughter doesn't really like captivation, imprisoning, slain and caging of innocent animals).
In modern concept of “vegetarian” or “vegan” often MISUNDERSTOOD according to his/her physical, emotional and mind state. Diet influences the state of mind, and the state of mind influences the diet choice, there into Self Realization (Modus Operandi)..
The pitfalls of pursuing a "real" vegetarian diet create a whole, natural fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds and grains. A modern vegetarian diet emphasizes food grown in harmony with Nature by organic farmer, on good soils, ripened naturally, and prepare with an attitude of Love. Such food carries highest prana and consciousness. (In this context by you knowingly suffers that dairy farming, egg and vegetables are grown liable to be unkind, is not sattvic!). * A modern vegetarian diet should not include junk food, excessive spicy or salty, fried food, while flour, white sugar, and other forms that unnaturally stimulate your blood sugar or your mind (one reason why modern dairy milk involve unkindness and contains excessive hormones are not sacred, not suitable as vegetarians). It avoids meat, fish, egg, alcohol, highly caffeinated beverages, and often garlic and onion as well (because uprooting/killing the whole plant, and as garlic/onion also induces one’s sexual desire).
Therefore vegetarianism never stop at eating habit alone. Once a person realize that plants also have prana and even killing the plant also wrong (answering to your question), then he is evolving to be a "fruitorian" and so on. (Remember Genesis..."I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food" : that means fruitorianism-this is God's ideal). It’s a continuous journey beyond, never stop at eating habit alone!
Human created with extraordinary sense beyond other creatures, Wisdom, evolved and outdated the "law of jungle", no killing for survival, territory, and raping in public as the most animals do. We are not not surviving by killing other beings. Those have choice should gracefully avoid meat eating.
The "life's not fair" argument is the logic of such wonderful people as Fascists, military dictators, murderers, rapists, school-yard bullies, and self-centered people in general. If the philosophy of vegetarianism goes against the philosophy of this sort of people, then that is just another tremendous benefit of vegetarianism.
Indeed, it is reasonable to assume that people who are willing to consider the moral consequences of killing animals are more likely to restrain from violence against other human beings if at all possible.
My personal view is this : plants grow with one desire and that is to reproduce. When we eat their seeds/nuts/fruits/edible roots/nectars/etc... we are consuming the portion they grow with the intent of shedding or losing. Most plants continue living on after their produce is harvested. If one "harvests" the ribs from a pig or cow, they don't grow back, that animal cannot live without them and dies. If one harvests apples, the tree continues on and gladly as its seed has been distributed [the purpose of the sweet apple's flesh]. In my opinion, even an ear of corn's "life" is not cruelly taken. When harvested, the stalk itself still exists [on a non-commercial farm at least]. The ear has been cut from it and is no longer attached to the "critical mass" that is the plant. However, if you're looking at your plants from an animistic view, in the sense that all things have a spirit, then I don't believe an ear of corn is in fear of being boiled, chewed or baked as it knows that that is its purpose. Its "corn spirit" would agree heartily with being boiled as it knows it has completed it's task in this world. However, back to the pig with no ribs, its task is not finished as it has been denied the right to live freely, to raise its children, to reproduce under it's own circumstances [the holding cells female pigs are placed in to be inseminated are actually called "rape pens"], and to live out its normal lifespan.
I understand that people are tortured and denied their rights everyday as well, but a vegan diet does not really address things like acid, war crimes and such. My diet has little to do with that [unless you're taking it to levels of immigrant labor and such - of which most vegans will tell you that they go out of their way to buy local/organic produce to minimize CO2 emissions and "slave" labor]. However, I think you'll find many vegans actually living the entire 'vegan lifestyle' are also involved in "liberal" issues such as anti-war protests and human rights.
What a vegan diet DOES address is the millions of cruel punishments, slaughters and abuse that occur every MINUTE in the united states alone. Practicing a vegan diet means that I object to the treatment which cattle, poultry and fish receive while they are being "farmed" as well as the utterly inhumane acts of branding, de-beaking, hooking, injections, lack of vet care and ultimately slaughter.
Why do I care when 'wild animals' and even 'domesticated animal' don't? Because I have the capacity to do so. I have the ability to sustain myself, my home and my child without the use of foods and products obtain through acts of cruelty. A wild tiger is a born hunter, carnivore and kills quickly and NEVER for sport, only food. Humans are born Omnivores with a system designed for vastly more plant-food than animal-flesh. We don't have the two stomaches of some wild cats, nor the extra feet of intestine that they have in order to really break-down animal flesh. We have mostly flat teeth and a digestive system made for plant-foods. It's healthier to be vegan and inflicts that much less cruelty in a world already heavily burdened with it.
You talk about native americans, but honestly, each tribe was VERY different from the next. You can't clump them all up into one group. IF they lived longer than we live now, I would suggest it was due to the active and more earthy life they lived. They didn't salt and sugar food, they didn't consume caffeine and food colorings, they didn't smoke [save for ceremonial purposes] and they didn't sit on their butts all day long. I don't think it has so much to do with meat or lack of meat in their diets.
Where do you draw the line? All ethics are arbitrary. That's easy: draw the line as low as you think you can, and reevaluate it from time to time.
I would agree that all ethical statements have some arbitrary component, but that does not mean we should abandon all ethics. The key is to be as reasonable as possible. The most ethical behavior probably would be to eat absolutely nothing so as to cause no impact on your environment. This is clearly impractical. The least ethical behavior would be to kill and eat anything you want, including humans. Almost all people would consider this wrong.
Everything in-between those two extremes is gray area. The best way to settle on a spot in that gray area is to carefully consider the issue and choose a diet which for you balances the ill of harming or killing creatures against the necessities of your life. Occasionally, you should evaluate your decision to see if you should modify it one way or the other. The most important aspect is that you give it some thought: consider the consequences of your actions.
As for where to draw the line, there are a few natural lines that make sense and are relatively un-arbitrary. Choose one of these lines and see how it works for you:
***Don't eat humans. That shouldn't be too hard to do, as it's illegal anyway. Most everyone follows this standard without giving it any thought.
***Don't eat primates. Well, most Westerners don't do this, but some people eat monkeys and even Chimpanzees. I'm hoping you don't.
***Don't eat any mammals, as they are very closely-related to humans. Also, mammals experience a broad range of feeling and many are quite intelligent. Despite the derogatory connotations associated with their name, pigs are some of the most intelligent animals on this planet.
***Don't eat any vertebrates because they experience high-order pain and other nervous responses in basically the same way that humans do. Some of them are quite intelligent, too.
***Don't eat any animals (Vegetarian, a.k.a. Ovo-Lacto Vegetarian). This is one of the least arbitrary standards, as there's a fairly clear line between animals and non-animals. All animals are sensate, react to pain, and are arguably a higher form of life than plants, fungi, etc.. Even some invertebrate animals, such as octopuses, can be extremely intelligent.
***Don't eat any animals or animal products (Vegan). This is also very un-arbitrary. Products such as milk and eggs come from enslaving animals in sometimes horrendous conditions. It makes sense that if you're trying not to kill animals, you also should try to avoid inflicting other forms of violence on them.
***Don't eat things which result in animal death when they are harvested. Mass-harvesting of grains, for example, causes the deaths of many creatures, including a variety of mammals, which are caught in the farm equipment. Meeting this standard is extremely difficult in modern societies as it basically requires that you eat only food you grow yourself or that come from a source you know to be safe. Over time, this may become more feasible. Consider however, that eating only meat certainly wouldn't help prevent animal deaths from grain harvesting. Meat animals eat huge quantities of harvested grain, and they also displace enormous numbers of animals from their natural habitats.
***Don't eat anything that is killed to become food (Fruitarian) - It may be possible to live without eating any dead things, including plants. Eating things such as nuts, fruits, and many vegetables does not directly cause any deaths. Personally, I see this as a somewhat unreasonable standard both because it sounds nutritionally near-impossible and because just taking a shower causes the deaths of countless microorganisms. I don't think it's reasonable to expect to be a human being and not cause some other things to die... I only look to minimize it. However, if you think you can live a Fruitarian life, more power to you.
***Don't eat the products of any living thing. I'm pretty sure this is impossible (at least in today's society), because it doesn't leave much to eat besides salt. However, it may be possible in the future that we could grow our food in enclosed environments (thus avoiding killing animals during harvesting), and that that food could be replicated through advanced cloning techniques, thus meeting at least the Fruitarian standard of not causing deaths. Right now, I'm not going to worry about it... but it is something to think about for the future.
In all of the above definitions, understand that not eating something also refers to not using it. Non-cannibals generally don't use human skin for ornamentation, and vegetarians generally avoid leather.
Or at least, it is reasonable to assume that people who are willing to consider the moral consequences of killing animals are more likely to restrain from violence against other human beings if at all possible.
Conclusion – Vegetarianism or veganism never stop at eating habit alone, but a “journey” beyond - Philosophy and way of life.
It's not just about animals. It's about a reverence for ALL of life and to see that as a philosophy and spiritual path.
What you see are people into animals, but not into reverence for life. They try to compartmentalize their care. They are childlike because they live out of written rules rather than out of the center of their being and the wisdom of the ancient writings.
It is actually quite funny for a true vegan to read childlike comments. It is like when you hear cute things from your child. You know or hope that they will gain the wisdom as the live longer. Unfortunately it appears that will never happen here.
So the answer is one must revere ALL of life to be moral.
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Bimbo I dear, I'm not sure whether your jock strap is on sideways or your b-u-t-t plug is over-inflated but Dr. Skummy is here to shed some light.
First of all, how old are you? In regards to your spelling, I believe you may be a 16 year old 7th grader. Secondly, it is difficult to discern meaning from your post because pausing to figure out what word you attempted to type ruins the flow.
You are correct on one thing, pain and suffering is the moral issue allowing the consumption of plants versus animals.
Here, have a seat on Dr. Skummy's good knee. When I was I child in early 1900's France, there was a child in my class with poor manners such as yours. Myself and my best friends Smeggy, Flexcattio, Vega N. Cornhole, Fauxtracy the Dolt and my imaginary friend, Flexitarian Vegetarian got together and threw that little trollop down the well behind the blacksmith's barn. Her bones remain there to this day.
I suppose you can ask why someone who says,
"The basic answer is, animals have a central nervous system, feel pain, have thought processes and have a sense of self and community."
is willing to sell hay to those who fatten and kill these "animals who have a central nervous systems, feel pain, have thought processes and have of sense of self and community. "
Some people, whether they are vegetarians/vegans or not, are just moral frauds, when they act differently than what the words from their mouth say.
I mean why be the great defender of animals and conspire with slaughterhouses to kill them? No different than the I.G. Farben company who made and sold the Zyklon B gas to kill the Jews and then said they had nothing to do with the Holocaust.
That is the problem . . . acting different than what you say. When people do that, they do not have a sense of self and really are cold, insecure, and masking deep resentments at society.