Where is the line between idealism and hypocrisy??!
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...
Answers: After reading this question and answers I am curious of a bigger question. One argument that is used by some is "you don't need meat to survive". I often wonder how big a house, how expensive a car, how full a closet, how many electronic gadgets these folks have? How much of it is necessary? Every bit of consumption has a detrimental effect on something or someone else. I am not advocating sack cloth and ashes, (If you are old enough to understand that term) but I do get very upset when I see picketers with the latest in fad clothes. There are several other obvious fallacies or outright lies that are promoted by V&Vs that I have seen posted on this forum.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...
Anyone who thinks they are right and the other is wrong, in ANY argument, regardless of topic, is being judgmental and lying to themselves. Lets take proven facts as an example. The Sun revolves around the Earth. Yes it does, if you watch the Sun, it moves, not the Earth. But the Earth moves around the Sun. Because mathematically you can...(Blah blah blah eyes glazing over) so yes the Earth does move around the Sun. Which point is correct? They both are. Ok one is perception and one is science, but they are both true statements. For one side to be adamant with the other is counter-productive. Who is right doesn't matter. Some one once said "To get some one to come to your side, you must first start on there side."
Eating meat has a direct and measurable affect on the lifes of animals.
Just because i make an effort in one area ( animal welfare ) does not mean I am a hypocrite if i don't make an effort in another area.
"you don't need meat to survive" is a perfectly fair factual statement. Its not judgemental or emotive. So whats your REAL problem with that statement ?
Your logic would be like saying everyone who argues with someone, and yet condems murder, is a hypocrite.
I WOULD be a hypocrite if i said everyone should be veggie for environmental reasons and yet consumes massive resources myself.
I have 3 cars and I'm a vegetarian. if you wish to call me a hypocrite because of that, good for you.
but i think you'll find the definition of a vegetarian is someone who does not eat meat, fish, poultry or slaughter by-products.
It doesn't mention Aston Martins
People are veggie for all sorts of reasons, which can include animal welfare, religion, health, environment.
If someone wants to be veggie because they believe it will improve thier health, does than mean they should live in a one-bedroom flat ???
Feel free to expand on your logic because i've missed it.
If picketers in "fad" clothes annoy you, you should address it with them, not generalise here.
Are you saying because I don't eat meat, I can not wear clothes?
How do you know that I have all the luxuries you mentioned?
Also why do you think all veg*n are of one mind? do you actually know the reason why each and every veg*n is rejecting meat?
I am sorry, but I really do not see a strong basis in your argument.
I'm not sure what you're asking.
It's demonstrably true (not an outright lie or a fallacy) that we don't need meat to survive, because many people survive well without it. It's a matter of choice.
We don't need to own cars at all; I haven't owned one since the 80s, but I don't judge people who do own one, whatever make it is.
I have things I don't need - a spare room, a computer, TVs, cell phones for example; this does not invalidate my decision not to eat meat on the grounds that I don't need to. And it certainly doesn't make me a hypocrite.
Hypocrisy means having lower standards than you claim to have; the only thing that would make a vegetarian a hypocrite with regards to their vegetarianism is if they claimed not to eat meat and secretly ate it.
you barely see the line between them. it's pretty thin.
Well, yeah. Most of the people on yahoo answers live in a first world country and consume more resources than we ought to. Vegetarianism is a good way to have a smaller impact on your environment, some vegetarians choose to do other things in addition and others do not. whats the problem?
edit: I was a meat eater for a long time before i was a veg and no one ever harassed me or did anything like what you describe. nor have i heard of it happening in real life, although the media has told me that anti-fur groups throw paint on clothes. You have thrown yourself out as an example, so give us a specific story in your life, i would like to hear it, and i will hapily apologize on behalf of the people who did it and assure you that is not what any part of this movement that i have personally encountered was about, and anything like that is very radical and very minority.
That's a question that everyone has to answer for him or herself. It is true that some people use their vegetarianism (or the fact that they drive a hybrid car, etc., etc.) to feel superior to others, but the truth is that all of us can always be doing more: to help our families, our society, our environment, ourselves...
The goal isn't to once-and-for-all eliminate all hypocrisy from one's life, and it certainly doesn't help anyone when we go around pointing out each other's moral deficiencies. The goal is to keep trying, every day, doing what we can. It's a process - you'll never wake up one day and be able to say "yes, I've done it - I'm a morally perfect human being now!"
So you're vegetarian and you own three cars. One doesn't balance out the other, but would it be somehow better to eat meat and have those three cars? And even if you do eat meat, maybe you volunteer at a soup kitchen, or spend time with the elderly, or adopted a child, or anything! Idealism isn't a mountain to climb. It just means being aware of what you're doing, every day, and when you can, trying to make things just a little bit better. People do this in different ways and for different reasons, so I don't believe we have the right to judge other people solely based on those choices.
You make some good points . The one I totally agree with you on is this: "I have a problem with people who use the Meat issue to accuse me of using more than my share of resources when they abuse other areas of resources"
However there are many who are eco-friendly on all fronts, not just diet. Not all vegetarians are hypocrites.
Nobody should be harrasing you, period the end. What they should be doing is educating you on the health hazards of consuming meat, fish and poultry (madcow, mercury and birdflu). They should be appealing to what I hope is a sense of compassion in you regarding the fur,factory farming, dairy, leather and medical research industries... in other words educating you on how animals are treated in our culture. Once that's done, you should be left to your own devices and to choose the lifestyle you want to lead.
Personally, I don't consider meat eaters and leather wearers murderers. I do, however, consider them to be uninformed and selfish. That being said, once I've set the example and informed someone -- that's all I can do. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him/her drink.
You sure do have a lot of problems.
I am vegan and I can't eat a lot of foods...I don't support corporate farms...I put myself into a minority for my beliefs...and I don't have as many problems as you.
I think that you should chill out. Fight something that is worth fighting, like violence against women and children, or world starvation, aids in Africa.
Stop wasting your time on people who chose to not eat something.
Man, we have too much time to cry...because we have nothing to actually cry about.
Everybody should be a vegan.
(Note: I might ramble because I have a healthy dose of Dr. John Daniels "medicinal alcohol" in me)
While it is true that some are being hypocritical, I subscribe this more to ignorance rather than a purpose driven malicious act. These would those who are too focused on their own ideals as to be unaware of the paradox it sometimes creates. Perhaps some kid who states " I am a vegetarian because I love animals animals and the environemnt" then proceeds to take an hour long shower using hundreds of gallons of water before going to the new mall built on land previously the home of now deceased or homeless starving and soon to deceased wild animals.
No ideal is perfect. No matter how good it sounds or how logicallly perfect it may seem, there will always be instances where it will come into direct conflict with another "perfect" ideal. In these situations, you will see reasonable people dancing a very skillful compromise. Doing the best they can in an imperfect situation. That's about all one can expect and hope for from other people. A vegetarian who has a nice house and drives a nice car( or two or three) sends his/her kids to the best schoolsand buys them all kinds of stuff is not being hypocritical .It's just someone who does not eat meat, is a good parent for providing the best shelter and the best education he/she can afford. The only bad thing that can be said is that they probably spoil their kids rotten with lots and lots of toys.
Also,while you might think that owning cars or luxury items is "not necessary", the people who do buy or own them think it is,if for no other reason than to feel good and perhaps have some sort of feeling of accomplishement and self worth. psychologica and emotional helth is just as important as physical health.
Like Michael, I own several vehicles and have lots of luxuries in my homes. seeing my kids safe in their rooms,on their quilted sheets, well fed, well educated is not a luxury. It gives me peace of mind and some assurance that my "next generation" has a very good chance of leading wonderful and hopegully productive lives in this otherwise very conflict filled world. Does that mean I cannot be a vegetarian if I wanted to or an advocate of anything for that matter?
well it depends, most people who don't eat meat do so because of the PROCESS. it's the animals being tortured in factory farms, suffering and in pain that bothers people.
most times too these people that are vegs for this reason will also not wear leather or fur. if you do see a veg wearing fur well yes, they're pretty big hypocrites (assuming their reason for veg. is animal rights, i know some do it for the health benefits).
i don't think everything is black and white. i wont' chastice a veg for not being a vegan. i'd rather see someone cut their meat consumption in half and not be a vegetarian than still eat meat regularly.
it depends on peoples reasons why. sure having a big house has an environmental affect, but i feel worse thinking about the pig that was tortured and abused and suffered and killed so i can have a piece of bacon with breakfast. i don't need that. that suffering isn't neccessary and that's very real to me becasue their pain feels the SAME as our pain.
As far as you don't need meat to survive... you don't. Otherwise, all the vegetarians of the world would be dead. That's just a simple fact, not an argument. I also agree that you don't need a big house and a Hummer in your driveway to survive. I'm a vegetarian, and I also have a problem with violent/hateful protests by other vegetarians, but these things rarely happen. Have they really happened to you? I've never even seen ANY form of protests by vegetarians in person, only on the news... and that's just PETA trying to get more media coverage. The vast majority of vegetarians are respectful of other people's beliefs, as they expect people to be respectful of theirs.
People become vegetarians basically to lessen the amount of harm they do to others. So to answer your question, the idealism becomes hypocrisy when things turn toward malice and suffering to achieve a goal. The ends do not justify the means.
You are right in one respect...we should all try to reduce our impact on the environment and live as simply as possible.
You are not right in automatically assuming that all vegetarians live in excess. Most vegetarians I know do not. I try not to. And, enjoying a few "electronic gadgets" such as video games and television does not result in the loss of life.