Where is the line between educating and being judgmental for vegetarians?!
Basically I think I’m very understanding to you guys and I honestly admire your choice.
Answers: I’m going to try to sound really hard to not sound like a jerk here because I do admire vegetarians. I grew up in the Midwest on meat, specifically in Chicago. I have quite a few friends that are vegetarians & when we go out or order something I let them pick where to eat because it’s more difficult for them to find something…like even Thai food because of the fish sauce. Heck, I even check the food for them when I pick it up to make sure bacon and blue cheese didn't end up on a salad. I even tried to become a vegetarian once, but only lasted a week before I got up at 1am and ate a foot long Italian sub out of my fridge. I do have a moral problem with how any type of meat gets to my table, and I believe Americans are very wasteful when it comes to meat & animals but I’m still going to eat meat.
Basically I think I’m very understanding to you guys and I honestly admire your choice.
His question was definitely deliberately confrontational. If he'd wanted to educate and enlighten, he'd have asked whether people take ethical considerations into account when they choose where and what to eat. He could have used KFC and their suppliers' practices as an example of why he does. I think the approach he took usually does more harm than good, but some people respond to it.
You sound like a good friend. Most of my friends and colleagues are meat eaters, but they are all respectful of my choices as well (and my best girlfriend has become an expert label reader!) By and large, I think the veg*ns of the world appreciate the support of omnivores like you, although we may wonder what we could say to you or show to you to change your mind.
For me, the line between educating and being judgmental depends on the level of respect I'm getting from the other half of the interaction. Sometimes people come here and ask genuine, curious questions and sometimes people come here to spew ignorance and intolerance. And sometimes I react to the latter and my answers are less educational than they might otherwise be.
win you try to force your vews on outher ppl is ware i draw the line
Well, I think it's a situation of mutual respect. Like, if you want to be a vegetarian, that's fine, if you come over to my house, I will make sure to make something extra for you to eat. But don't come up to me and start lecturing when I order a burger, I don't force meat on you, so don't for vegan-ism on me.
vegans and vegetarians should probably only elaborate on answers when asked. it's fine to share your eating habits but they didn't ask to be told how that meal ended up on their plate. i think meat eaters enjoy the ignorance
I agree that its not right for others to 'force' their views on others, however, i feel that the question you answered wasnt wholeheartedly devoted to being 'anti meat' but to animal welfare. The issue of how animals are bred and treated throughout their short lives is relevant to both meat eaters and vegetarians/vegans. I think that generally, vegetarians have a greater knowledge of these issues and of the mistreatment of animals for human consumption and feel that in order for us to make an informed decision about the foods we eat tend to revert to 'shock tactics' to get the message across.
I think it has more to do with a persons character than anything else. Meaning they are judgmental in WHATEVER they do not just being a vegetarian. And in such cases, there is really nothing that can be done. They are petty, intolerant and narrow minded. You treat them as you would treat dust. Shake or brush them off.
"Educating" needs two things to be successful. One, someone has to do the teaching with the accurate facts. And two, someone has to be willing to be educated. And even if the "lesson" is not accepted, at least the information was shared. Some people, not necessarily vegetarians, simply cannot tell the difference between "educating" and "preaching". And it's because of the latter why the constant bickering always comes up. And it's because of the noisy "preachers" that the quiet "educators"are not being heard.
A lot of the vegans and vegetarians using YA are very young, still at school in many cases, and so have the zeal of the recent convert coupled with the absolute conviction that they are right that comes with extreme youth.
I'm not actually putting them down, if you can't be fiercely idealistic in your teen years, when can you be? But questions like the one you link to do make veg*ns look shrill and silly.
I think most veg*ns are far more diplomatic. I have been vegetarian for decades and vegan for about 12 years. I respect other people's right to make different decisions - most of the people I love, like and respect are meat-eaters. Being vegan isn't something I usually mention unless I am invited to someone's house to eat or the question of eating out arises.
If people then ask questions, and they often do, I'm willing to discuss it with them for as long as they like. But being rude and judgemental never changed anyone's mind. Reasoned argument without emotive language sometimes makes people think.
I think it helps if you take a moment to see the other's perspective...
Many vegans are deeply disturbed and pained by the cruelty that is imposed on animals who never deserved to be mass-murdered. When they watch you eat your meat, they see something that was wrongly butchered.
You see vegans as being judgmental because you see them as infringing on your right of choice. But that's not what vegans see-- they see you impinging on an animals right to life, freedom, and not being murdered, and think that your right to choice stops when it inflicts pain and suffering on something else.
If there was a cause you felt strongly about (that impacts you or others you care about deeply), I'm sure you'd go out of your way to tell as many people as possible so that the senseless destruction would stop. That's what vegans are doing too.
When you are pained to your core about the violence around you, and you want to help it stop... but there are these ignorant people who don't even realize the enormity of the suffering and damage they are causing and don't take responsibility for their actions.... that really HURTS. You just want to shake some sense into the person and make them stop their ignorant actions. When one is deeply pained to the core about an issue, it's easy to go beyond education and start getting extremely frustrated with people who don't seem to care-- and that's when the judgmental attitudes comes in.
Think about if you were totally passionate about something... or something that you equated to genocide, or something that urgently needs to be changed. I doubt you'd simply 'educate' others... but rather you'd be pleading, arguing, fighting or doing whatever to advocate your cause and create change. I'm not suggesting these tactics necessarily work best... but at least one can understand the sentiment. Vegetarians are trying to save needless murder (from their perspectives), and murder is not something to be taken lightly-- it's really hard to simply educate when you are so deeply pained and frustrated by the issue.
As a vegan myself, I am sharing with you the way myself and others think. However, in some ways I do understand your perspective as well. Most of us were originally meat-eaters (at least I was). Twelve years ago, I used to love my meat and never thought I could ever give it up. But the way I stopped eating meat was due to other people educating me without making me feel bad about myself. There were vegetarians who would just give me dirty looks, and I felt bad-- but that didn't stop me from eating meat. It was not until I saw images of animal slaughter and had people kindly assist me on how to make changes that I actually did make them. So actually it is better for vegetarians and vegans to educate rather than being judgmental... as being judgmental serves no purpose and only makes meat-eaters more resistant to change. However, as previously stated, it is easy to understand why vegans become judgmental... because most are really troubled by animal suffering....
i think alot of it stems from most of the good answers here and i just want to ellaborate on one..that is the fact that most veggies and vegans assume that because us omnivores eat meat, we have no idea where it comes from so they think we are all ignorant. Personally i know very well aout animal cruelty and where my meat comes from (volunteered at animal shelter for 4 years, only buy local organic meats) its this ignorance that drives alot of the veggies and vegans into hating us and preaching to us every opputunity they got. Like was previously mentioned alot of the ppl are very young and dont quite having a full understanding of the concepts involved. for example at my school some 4 years ago there was a bunch of vegetarians that always hung around and they would purposly go round smacking peoples food out their hand if it had meat in it and would start harassing people....everyone just needs to grow up...being different doesnt make you less...what have we learned from racial and ethical discimination???
I think sometimes, some people may feel anger toward others because they know what animals are going through everyday, and people are still eating meat. I think some of them may think that doing things like that are helping to show people what is happening to animals, not realizing that they are being mean. Also they may be frustrated with it all and are feeling a lot of anger and decide to let it out somewhere like here. Your answer was a good one, that person who asked that question made us all look bad.
I think there are two places to draw the line.
The first; I don't think vegetarians should give out their vegetarian views to meat eaters in conversation without being asked, or without being cajoled about it in some way.
However, I see nothing wrong with having ads like PETA does. They paid for the advertising space just like anyone else. I have to see advertisement for products I don't want to buy and for political candidates I don't want to vote for. If you don't like the ad, ignore it.
The second: if vegetarians do feel the the need to argue for their beliefs, they should stick to points that can be backed up by scientific fact as much as possible.
I think the question you show would have been fine here in the Vegetarian Vegan forum, but placing it in the Fast Food forum is guaranteed to get a negative reaction. It's like the people who come to the VV forum and post questions like "have a nice steak, you know you want it, mmm mmm mmm?"
The question you quoted is clearly judgement and has no education in it at all. I would not associate my self with that question.
Thank you for not judging all veggies by that example.
People should state facts ( if asked for ) . Other than that we should all leave each other alone.
For example, i would not support PETA because they are judgemental and full of shock tactics. However I would support Compassion in World Farmer, The Vegetarian Society, the International Union of Vegetatarians and VIVA ( Veggie International voice for animals ). I choose those organisations because of thier postive approach to education.
A personal example:
I would not say "its wrong to eat meat"
but i would say
"if you eat supermarket meat, fast or processed foods you support modern commercial mass factory farming"
One is judgemental, the other is fact. Some people think the second one is judgemental. Its not, i didn't say it was wrong, i just stated the link between eating meat and the food industry.
And I would only ever state that if someone said it was all the "farmers fault" or some similar statement.
In the real world, i doubt many people know i'm veggie at all.
EDIT:
I've just read Ms Z answer and my thought is "WHY don't I judge people on what they eat ? " Why not? its part of thier behaviour. We judge people on if they are abusive or kind, loyal or liars, drive carefully or dangerously.... why not if they eat meat or not ? I'm starting to think I'm too soft.
I have never thought about it much....and I have never actually felt what I thought after reading your question...but this is how I feel today.
Us western nations are shameful. We don't care where our food comes from and if it is built on suffering. Why is it that people are a little embarrassed when they eat fast food? It's because they know, it's crap food, it supports a horrible industry which is toxic to our environment, to humanity and to our health.
I have never judged anyone on what they consume, but when I read your question, I thought "Everyone should be judged on what they consume, we all need to take responsibility and stop playing ignorant. We are such drones...eating whatever is on the television or put in front of us and we are getting fat and sick and honestly, it's disgusting and shameful."
So there you go, this is how I feel now. I guess people who stop smoking can judge the smokers, people who stop supporting an industry on suffering can judge the ones that support it without a thought, I think it makes sense.
It's a difference in agenda I think. I don't bother those who eat meat around me as it's not my buisness. However, if someone asks me about it I gladly tell them why "I" am a vegetarian. But I always try to remember the "I" part and it usually allows me to aviod conflict. That is, unless it's an idiot that is offering me meat and saying something stupid like," try this steak, it's such a yummy cow. You don't know what your missing." To which I usually say "no thanks, but if you don't watch it you may one day get the chance to make jokes in the emergency room. Those jokes usually kill there, literally." That way they get to see how it feels to have someone affect the enjoyment of their eating like they did mine. Then I just don't go eat with that person again.
In life there is only one absolute line and that is death. All other so called lines are rather fuzzy. The line you are referencing is when it is crossed you become more antagonistic than informative. My tolerance in such matters is very short therefore my line would probably be much quicker than some others.
i didn't read the link you posted, but your right in that some veg*ns can be a bit "extreme" in their "education"... in their defense it is VERY difficult to be a vegetarian, as you yourself pointed out you can't just go into a restaurant and know you can order something great and enjoy a meal... you have to plan ahead for everything. on top of that we get asked ALL THE TIME to defend and explain our food choices. i sit down at the table and get in middle of eating "what are you eating? why? oh how long have you not eating meat? WHAT DO YOU EAT? how do you get protein? oh that's soy? that sounds so gross? etc. etc. etc.)" what if i sat down and said "oh that's meat? that's soooo gross" then i'd be the bad guy right? what if i asked a meat eater WHY they are eating meat and to explain it? asked them all about their nutrional makeup and how theyr'e getting too much protein and tha'ts why america is obese? i'd be the bad guy again. we get bothered allllll the time, and sometimes we want to educate and sometimes we just want to eat a meal without explaining it! veg*ns get the bad rep when the meat eaters get away with all their comments and rude behavior.... so it sucks for people like you that are being considerate when they come across a rant by a veg, but please try to be understanding as to just how much we deal with and have to hold in. sometimes it just comes out!
i got asked in the middle of my first company lunch allt eh above questions and "dont' you ever just crave a big fat juicy steak?" and that wasn't the first time i've been asked such a question... yet nothing was wrong wtih that to other omnis/meat eaters! what if i sat down in the middle of lunch and said something like that to a meat eater? "don't you ever get tired of a bloody slab of animal guts on your plate"?
it gets frustrating. both sides need to work on it.