An honest, non-offensive question about veganism/vegetarianism?!


Question: An honest, non-offensive question about veganism/vegetarianism!?
As an anthropologist, you learn pick up on feelings, beliefs and behavioral trends within a group!.

I was wondering, why is it so important to be a REAL vegan or a REAL vegetarian!? Why is so much of a vegan or vegetarian's identity tied up in their dietary choices!? Why are some of the pollotarians or pescetarians here berated for not being REAL vegetarians!? Although they technically aren't vegetarians, why is it so important that they don't identify with vegetarians!?

I'm not a troll, this is just something I've noticed!.Www@FoodAQ@Com


Answers:
"Why is so much of a vegan or vegetarian's identity tied up in their dietary choices!?"

Answer: I think a huge part of it is that anytime a person is part of a minority and/or marginalized group, membership in that group becomes part of your identity!. A fairly big part of your life ends up being defending your position to that masses!.

I see a lot of veg(etari)ans take on a dichotomous stance -- you are either with us or you're not!. And there is no middle ground!. Which is unfortunate because it's alienating and it doesn't help the group as a whole become less marginalized!. (Basically, this is me indirectly saying if you are a vegetarian who treats people with respect, I'm soooo your biggest fan!)

To play devils advocate a little bit (this WILL get me some thumbs down but I think it is worth looking at how different people view and experience these issues) : Vegetarians DO have a nice title to cling to and that is great social currency to have!. They can say "I am a vegetarian!." and be done with it (for the most part)!. Someone who is passionate about their food choices in ways that a!. don't fit a title OR maybe even more importantly, b!. don't fit a title that people are as familiar with, don't have the same social currency and they are interestingly marginalized by BOTH "conventional eaters" and veg(etari)ans!. When someone has to say, "Well, I focus on eating organic foods and local foods, for these products I treat the local label with higher priority than the organic label but for these other products I do the opposite based on this research and I eat meat under some conditions but not others, from these sources but not from these!. I eat this kind of meat but not this kind for this reason and I eat seafood because blah blah blah but politically I have a problem with this kind and I don't eat processed foods and that's a really important part of my dietary identity as well and oh, I think it is really important to drink tap water over bottled water !.!.!.!. ETC!." That is so the opposite of social currency haha!.!.!. it is a major social nuisance!. And of course, sure, a few labels could shorten PARTS although not all of that long diatribe !.!.!. labels like "locavore, whole foods, and maybe some others" could help but they don't have quite the same name recognition as terms like "vegetarian" and they don't quite get the job done!.

Now, I should also note that just because conscious non-vegetarians (hey, I created a decent label, I'll have to remember that one for later!) don't have quite the same social currency as vegetarians do, that doesn't mean I advocate for meat eaters to just casually say, "Oh, I'm a vegetarian!." People should do their best to use the appropriate labels and when those labels don't exist, do your best to be accurate!. BUT, I do think socially their lack of a solid food identity is really interesting and also just kind of complicated !.!.!.

Oh and I didn't fully address the "berating" part of your question!. In addition to what I've already said, for some it is sort of turf wars and for some it is just really passionate animal rights activism and for others, it is any number of other things!.

Great question BTW, thanks for asking it!Www@FoodAQ@Com

My dietary choices have little to do with my identity, actually!. In fact they almost never come up IRL!. Here, things are different!.

This forum is frequently invaded by trolls who post obscene, often violent messages!. I think most regulars have received emailed death threats!.

These trolls usually claim to be "pollotarian," "pescatarian," or "flexatarian!." It's all childish nonsense, as the words mean nothing!. Vegetarianism exists!. The word has a specific definition!.

There are non-troll meat eaters on this forum, several in fact!. They don't ask the same questions over and over, ("Where do you get your protein!?" "Don't plants have feelings too!?") and no one cares if they "identify with vegetarians" or not!. They bring up good points, are informed about the subject at hand, and they are treated with respect!.Www@FoodAQ@Com

There is some of that, those who are sticklers about the subject tend to say that is because they dont want the word deluted, personally i dont buy this excuse!. But there is also a lot of encouraging and embracing anyone who is willing to think about there diet and make any kind of change, particularly in the real world, an example is my local veg meet up group makes frequent mention that veg curious are welcome to their functions!.Www@FoodAQ@Com

I can only speak for myself on this one, I can say that meat eaters don't bother me at all!.

But somebody who claims they are a ''vegetarian'' when they eat fish is clearly misguided!.

I don't discriminate against them, but I will politely correct them!.

People think vegetarians eat fish, but they don't!. Misconceptions have to be cleared up (not in a rude way though)!.

I hope you don't think vegetarians look down on those who eat fish and other meats, it's just a case of clearing up the confusion!.

Hope this helps!. :)Www@FoodAQ@Com

I'm not trying to tell vegans what they should or should not wear, but, I would like to point out that wool doesn't kill the sheep!. In fact, if you don't sheer the sheep, its wool becomes severely overgrown and it can get sick and die because of the way we've bred them!. Wearing wool actually helps the sheep!. My 2 cents!.

This is in reference to someone else's reply which implied that wool kills animals!. It doesn't!.Www@FoodAQ@Com

Vegan and vegetarian are definitions!.

As a anthropologist why would you are about that!?

Is this a REAL Egyptian tomb, is this a REAL artifact!?

I do not think that people other than veggies/vegan are berated as much as corrected!.Www@FoodAQ@Com

I don't call myself a police officer, because I'm not!. How much confusion would it cause if people came to me expecting me to help them as a cop and I told them to buzz off!?

What if Buddhists started calling themselves Jewish!? Do you think that would cause a lot of confusion!?

While it may not be important to be a "real" vegetarian, it is important for people to know what vegetarianism really is!. How would you feel if people addressed you as "little boy"!? It would probably annoy you!. It also annoys vegetarians that people think they eat chicken and fish because some folks mistakenly use the word vegetarian and cause confusion!.

As far as people berating others for not being real, they also have a very real title that supersedes vegetarianism!.!.!. it's a*****e!. Any effort towards vegetarianism, even if it isn't, will still help with the same goals vegetarians are trying to accomplish!.

Correcting people is necessary, how else will they know the truth!. Being an a** about it is not!.Www@FoodAQ@Com

Its important because, as a vegetarian myself , I know what it means to have people say "so you eat fish!?" ad infinitum

Or to have people criticise you by saying "well, i know a vegetarian and they eat fish" or "they eat chicken" etc, etc

It does baffle me how people seem to think we can all define words at will!.

If i was an anglo-saxon living in Liverpool, and called myself a Columbian drug dealer, you would probably say it was nonsense and i was lying!. True, i would be using words incorrectly and not as defined!.

So why would you say its ok to mis-use the word vegetarian, isn't that being selective !?

Why is it so hard to use words correctly, they aide communication!.

to use them incorrectly confuses communication

You just have to look at Masterfood debarcle last year when they said that its ok to put geletin in mars bars because some vegetarians eat slaughter by-products!. Another example of how misusing the word creating confusion!.

The defintion is clear, and has been that way since 1847!.

If someone goes into a resurant and says "I'm a vegetarian and I'll have the salmon please" we have to pick up the peices next time around!. Then WE look like we're being picky!.!.!."well, the last VEGETARIAN said they ate fish" etc etc

If you look at my profile you will find links to all the major vegetarian groups in the world and what they say about "fish-eating-vegetarians"!. Against all that body of opinion, you would think people would get the message, but for some reason they still choose to declare themselves in some way related to vegetarianism!.

I really do not care how much fish anyone eats, its not commenting on thier diet choice, but i do care about the confusion that tieing it to the word "vegetarian" creates

I think you are not understanding this because vegetarianism isn't important to you!. If you were a Christian, and you heard Osama bin Laden say he was a perfect model Christian, you probably speak out and say "actually, you are not"!. If he was listed on a Church wall as being a "hero of the catholic church" you would probably say that was wrong too!.!.!.!.!.!.why !? Because it matters to you!. I think thats why you cannot understand thats it wrong to put fish on a veggie menu!.

If you are not a christian, tell me something that is important to you and i'll give you another analogy!.

Try this one: Is it ok to put non-Kosher food on the Kosher menu !?

How about milk-shake on the dairy-free menu !?

If these are wrong, why is it ok to put whatever-you-like on the veggie menu !?

and can i repeat, this is NO judgement on what people eat, its just a comment on the "I'm a vegetarian and eat fish" stanceWww@FoodAQ@Com

I can only speak for myself, being a vegan!.!.!.

The reason veganism is part of my identity is because it's NOT just about what's on my plate - it's a lifestyle which advocates compassion in every thing that I do, towards every animal - human and non-human - that I touch!. And I've found room to exercise that compassion in almost ever pary of my life!.

Furthermore, it's REALLY important to me!. Just like I'm Christian!.!.!. I'm not just Christian at church, I'm Christian 24/7!. Christianity guides my life decisions both big and small!. Veganism is similar in that it also guides those decisions!. It can't NOT be part of my identity!.

As for pollotarians and pescetarians!.!.!. the insistence that they refrain from calling themselves vegetarian is the simple reason that they're not!. And it's not about being nitpicky!. Most of us (and by us, I mean veg*ns) have encountered a person - and unfortnately it's often a server at a restaurant - who insist that this or that chicken or fish dish is vegetarian/vegan or they serve us a vegetarian soup that contains chicken broth!.!.!. that waiter got that misconception that veg*ns eat fish/chicken from the pesce/pollotarian who came in to their restaurant last week and said "I'm vegetarian!.!.!. what do you have on the menu that I can eat!? Oh, chicken salad!? I'll have that!." So it's not that we oppose their identification with vegetariansim!.!.!. we oppose the spreading of incorrect information, and we oppose it because it actually does negatively impact true veg*ns!.Www@FoodAQ@Com

I think your anthropological skills may have deserted you here!.

''Why is so much of a vegan or vegetarian's identity tied up in their dietary choices!? '' There's a sweeping generalisation!

I am not defined by my dietary choices; it is part of who I am, but a very small part!. My politics and interests are a much greater part!. I've never encountered another veg*n whose identity was 'tied up with their dietary choices' either!.

Nobody is 'berated' for their dietary choices!. Most veg*ns couldn't care less what other people eat!. The words vegetarian and vegan have dictionary definitions, however, and those who call themselves veg*ns when they are not can make life difficult for veg*ns sometimes!.

As an example: you are attending a conference and returned a form about your dietary requirements several weeks in advance - vegetarian!. At lunch time you find the vegetarian option is fish!. It isn't a question of fish being on the menu, fish is the option provided as vegetarian!. And why not!? Previous 'vegetarians' they have catered for have been happy to eat fish!.

That's one example!. Personally I'm a pedant about correct word usage too!.

VeggieFootballPimp is not a veg*n, he IS a trollWww@FoodAQ@Com

It's not so much about personal identity, at least not for me!. The problem is that you have all of these people who eat fish and chicken going around and claiming to be vegetarians, so people get the wrong idea about vegetarianism!. I've had people insist that I should be able to eat fish because they know so-and-so who eats fish and is a vegetarian!. I've seen fish actually listed in the "vegetarian" section of a restaurant's menu! It just creates a lot of confusion when people who eat meat try to identify themselves as vegetarians!.

EDIT:
If that restaurant thinks that fish is vegetarian, then they may use fish as an ingredient and not list it on the menu!. And the meat-eaters who see fish listed on the menu will get the impression that vegetarians eat fish!.!.!.!. then maybe they will prepare a fish dish for a friend who is vegetarian!.

A vegetarian section makes it easier for vegetarians to find food they can eat, instead of looking through every single item on the menu to see whether it contains meat

What is so wrong with having labels!? Imagine if you were allergic to dairy and were trying to avoid products that contained dairy!. How would you feel if someone made you a dish with goat cheese and said "I know someone who's lactose intolerant and she eats goat cheese, so this dish is ok for you to eat"!?

By the way, my dad only eats fish for meat!. I've never berated him for not being a "real" vegetarian!. I think it's wonderful that he's eliminated most meats from his diet!. However, if he started calling himself "a vegetarian who only eats fish", I would politely ask him to stop using the term "vegetarian" to describe himself!.Www@FoodAQ@Com

i agree there is a lot of commotion about people who are vegetarians should be vegans and vegans who aren't 100% aren't "good enough" and so on and so on!.!.!. i don't like it!.!.!.

but there is a label for a reason!. if you eat chicken or any meat you are not a vegetarian!. now i'm a vegetarian!. if i go somewhere i don't want to be served chicken because the cook "knew someone who was a vegetarian and they ate chicken" !.!.!. see how it can be a problem!?

but that's the label!. if your using the labels use them properly!.

as far as what your gonig to eat though, do whatever fits you right!. if you want to keep seafood in your diet go ahead!.!.!. just say you dont' eat any meat except seafood, or i'm a mostly vegetarian but i eat seafood (seafood seems to cause more of a fuss, whereas if you eat chicken your obviously definately not a veg)!.!.!.!. people should do whatever fits them best!.!.!.

i'm a "full" vegetairan!. i have a friend who is veg but eats seafood!. i've had my meat eater friends say things like "oh she's one of those fake vegs!.!.!. i have more respect for you at least your a "real" veg"!.!.!.!. i think it's stupid and silly!. we're both doing more than they are!Www@FoodAQ@Com

Below is the definition of a vegetarian and vegan diet/lifestyle!.
I dont think it important or unimportant to be a REAL vegetarian or vegan, in fact I think its irrelevant!.

I think you are either a veggie or non-veggie, meat eater or non-meat eater!.

I just do what I am happy with and thats being a vegan, I dont have a problem with anyone who is not, everyone has a choice!.

I think the problem you may be refering to in here, is when someone(99% of the time a troll) states they are a vegetarian who only eats chicken or fish!. and people point out to them they are not "classed" as a vegetarian!. I think its helps people to understand what being a vegetarian is!.

Vegetarianism is the practice of a diet that excludes all animal flesh, including poultry, game, fish, shellfish or crustacea, and slaughter by-products[1] [2]!. The reasons for choosing vegetarianism may be related to morality, religion, culture, ethics, aesthetics, environment, society, economy, politics, taste, or health!.

There are several variants of the diet, some of which also exclude eggs and/or some products produced from animal labor such as dairy products and honey!. Veganism, for example, excludes all animal products from diet!. By some strict definitions, animal products are not used for attire either, whether or not the production of clothing or items has directly involved the actual death of an animal (dairy, eggs, honey, wool, silk, down feathers, etc!.) [3] A generic term for both vegetarianism and veganism, as well as for similar diets, is "Plant-based diets"!.[4]Www@FoodAQ@Com

I will try to address all the questions you've posed!. I'm only one person and can only answer from my perspective, but here's my $0!.02:

why is it so important to be a REAL vegan or a REAL vegetarian!?
~I think that people have every right to eat what they wish!. However, if they choose to identify with veg*nism, then they should adhere to what a veg*n really is!. Similarly, if someone says that they are Catholic, they should be such through and through - it's not an a la carte belief system!. You either are or you are not!. I think the same rings true with veg*nism!.

Why is so much of a vegan or vegetarian's identity tied up in their dietary choices!?
~In my past experience as a vegetarian and my current experience as a vegan, it is a lot more than a dietary choice!. It is a lifestyle - to make a much smaller footprint while living here on Earth, to respect all living things, to treat all animals with compassion, to honor my body and treat it well by fueling it with good foods and so on!. The ethical and environmental concerns that are associated with veg*nism transcend food!. Though each person has his own reason (or combinations of reasons) for abstaining from exploiting animals, very few folks are solely concerned for their own health!. Many of us realize there are causes and issues greater than us and what is on our plates!. So, some of us recycle, donate time/talent/money to charitable organizations that help animals, drive our cars less, conserve energy, use reusable canvas bags at the grocer, etc!. My veganism is a part of who I am, but not all of who I am!. It extends into other areas of my life, but it doesn't consume me 24/7!.

Why are some of the pollotarians or pescetarians here berated for not being REAL vegetarians!?
~I won't sit here and say that this doesn't happen because it does!. I think some people truly are not aware that veg*ns don't eat fish or chicken!. But others are obviously making up their own definitions of veg*nism as they go along and that's not right!.!.!.!.nor is it far to other veg*ns who do not eat animal flesh at all!. I go back to the Catholic example: many people know that the Catholic religion has specific docterines and dogmatic practices!. If one is Catholic, then that's what they follow!. Period!. If I step up and say I'm Catholic, but I don't need to participate in the Sacraments of Baptism, Communion and Confirmation to become one, that's incorrect!. I can't just make up the rules as I go along!.

Although they technically aren't vegetarians, why is it so important that they don't identify with vegetarians!?
~They are more than welcomed to identify with the principles and reasons behind the lifestyle, but they really should not attempt to include themselves in the veg*n subculture!. While I'm sure each individual has their personal reasons for "only eating ____" (fish/chicken/seafood), their level of abstinence does not equal that of someone who is truly a veg*n!.

I hope that helps!.!.!.again - that's just my perspective as I cannot speak for all of us!.
Cheers!

::Just as an aside, I am not trying to make a direct parallel between veg*nism and organized religion (though some might argue they are close)!. I am just trying to highlight the fact that both are a belief system!. Both have pretty clear-cut "rules" (if you will) for ascribing to those beliefs!. I was just trying to make a point!. I'm not picking on Catholics btw- I myself am Catholic::Www@FoodAQ@Com

I was going to be one but then figured there would be no point to it other than trying to stay really really healthy!. I wouldn't go so far as to try and save the animals because the ones you eat are already dead!. I don't see the point in wasting food!.Www@FoodAQ@Com

you know your going to get this question reported!. look how racist these vegans are about the black dude!.


vegans are outcast of society and loser bums!.Www@FoodAQ@Com





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