Vegan moral question...?!
I'm a vegan!. I would love to someday own my own farm (when I grow up) where I treat my animals as pets (obviously don't kill any of them)!. But, If I did, and I had goats, chickens, cows, etc, and I treated them all very well, would it be right for mt to consume the milk/eggs that they produced!? also, I am going to a dairy farm this weekend (they let you nurse the baby goats and also they make all natural hair and body products that I love) and the dairy farm is run by vegetarians who keep excellent care of their animals and treat them like pets!. (When they have to sell them they screen potential buyers to make sure that they'll be treated well and not killed in their new homes!.)
So, anyways, they make ice cream, goat cheese, etc!. at this place, so I was wondering if it would be wrong to eat it!? I'd be right there and I'd be able to see the animals it came from and if they we're happy, healthy, etc!. I know this is a matter of choice/opinion/morals, but I'd like some input please!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
So, anyways, they make ice cream, goat cheese, etc!. at this place, so I was wondering if it would be wrong to eat it!? I'd be right there and I'd be able to see the animals it came from and if they we're happy, healthy, etc!. I know this is a matter of choice/opinion/morals, but I'd like some input please!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
Answers:
I don't like it when people treat vegetarianism as a black-and-white LABEL!. (I don't like it when people say things like, "You ate meat once this year!. You are NOT a vegetarian!." To me, vegetarianism is a guideline, a principle!. The principle behind not drinking the cow's milk is that it harms the cow-- in the dairy industry today, their male calves are used to make veal, they are kept in small dairy stalls, and they are slaughtered once they are no longer useful!. But, if you could drink their milk without harming them, why not drink it!? If you could have a cow that you gave lots of space to graze and enjoy its life as is natural for a cow, and you didn't impregnate an unhealthy number of times to get its milk, and you continued to take good care of it even when it was too old to produce milk, I think it would be very noble!. I don't think there would be a problem with drinking its milk!. And I think you could still call yourself a vegan; you're not HARMING an animal to take its milk!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
forgive me if i'm wrong, but i thought vegans didnt consume or use animal products
i understand that you will KNOW the animals are well cared for andnot exploited etc
but surley thats like a vegetarian asking if its ok to eat an animal that dies of old age!?
just my thoughts on the matterWww@FoodAQ@Com
i understand that you will KNOW the animals are well cared for andnot exploited etc
but surley thats like a vegetarian asking if its ok to eat an animal that dies of old age!?
just my thoughts on the matterWww@FoodAQ@Com
You have to make your mind up!. None of us can do that for you!.
In my opinion it'd be fine but you would no longer be vegan of course!.
I personally wouldn't consume the dairy because of all the cholesterol!.!.!.!.and because it used to be inside a goat!!
Good luck on your decision!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
In my opinion it'd be fine but you would no longer be vegan of course!.
I personally wouldn't consume the dairy because of all the cholesterol!.!.!.!.and because it used to be inside a goat!!
Good luck on your decision!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
I think you need to decide WHY you are a vegan first and then make up your mind from there!.
FabulousinIndy has a fabulous answer!Www@FoodAQ@Com
FabulousinIndy has a fabulous answer!Www@FoodAQ@Com
I know what you mean, i think its okay as cruelty and dead of the animal is not involved!.
Its the same with farming animals!. I think its okay to have the horse or ox help the farmer as long as the farmer takes good care of the animals and loves them and feeds them and treats them with kindness!.
I think you should actually encourage other people to buy stuff form these people, so than they can use the profits to buy and care for more animals and treat them with love!. - think about it, a person buying icecream form industry meat and dairy company or a local kind person that is not hurting the animal!.
Yeah this one is a grey line!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
Its the same with farming animals!. I think its okay to have the horse or ox help the farmer as long as the farmer takes good care of the animals and loves them and feeds them and treats them with kindness!.
I think you should actually encourage other people to buy stuff form these people, so than they can use the profits to buy and care for more animals and treat them with love!. - think about it, a person buying icecream form industry meat and dairy company or a local kind person that is not hurting the animal!.
Yeah this one is a grey line!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
Well, unless you're breeding the animals, they aren't going to produce any milk!. Don't breed them, and you can obviate the milk question!. As for eggs, the workers at Farm Sanctuary boil the eggs and feed them back to the chickens to help up their calcium (laying eggs depletes a hen's calcium stores)!. Hens will produce eggs whether or not they are bred is my understanding!.
You will have to find a way to make money--perhaps you could grow crops and sell those instead of the milk that would belong to a baby cow or goat and the eggs that belong to the hens!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
You will have to find a way to make money--perhaps you could grow crops and sell those instead of the milk that would belong to a baby cow or goat and the eggs that belong to the hens!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
On your original point, I'd like to know how you expect this farm of yours to support itself financially!? Feed costs money to buy or grow, you know!. If you aren't milking your goats, collecting your chicken eggs to sell, or raising a beef cow, how are you going to feed these things!? And if you're off to your "city job" to make the money to feed them, who takes care of the animals!? It's a dawn to dusk job, you know!.
Anyway, enjoy the ice cream!. You aren't a murderer or a "rapist" (sheez)!. I can't say if goat ice cream is any good, though!. Never had it!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
Anyway, enjoy the ice cream!. You aren't a murderer or a "rapist" (sheez)!. I can't say if goat ice cream is any good, though!. Never had it!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
I'm sorry honey, but there is no way around it: When you consume animal breast milk and chicken eggs, you're taking something that doesn't beling to you!. That's exploitation!.
You're either vegan or you're not!. Make a decision, and act accordingly!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
You're either vegan or you're not!. Make a decision, and act accordingly!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
If you feel comfortable with the situation the animals are kept in then I see no why reason why you shouldn't partake in these products, especially if the takings go towards the up keep and comfort of the animals!.
From my understanding veganism is an ideal that stands for animal rights and the abolishment of cruelty towards these animals!. Free range farming isn't a cruel life for any animal especially when they are not used for a food source!.
I'm not a vegetarian much less a vegan, but I see no moral dilemma here!. In the end it's your decision, do you want the label of 'vegan' or do you want to do what your common sense and personal morals tell you to do!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
From my understanding veganism is an ideal that stands for animal rights and the abolishment of cruelty towards these animals!. Free range farming isn't a cruel life for any animal especially when they are not used for a food source!.
I'm not a vegetarian much less a vegan, but I see no moral dilemma here!. In the end it's your decision, do you want the label of 'vegan' or do you want to do what your common sense and personal morals tell you to do!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
It comes down to this:
Are you vegan because:
A) you defy the mistreatment of animals
or
B) You don't think it's right to make "use" of animals in any way, shape, or form
!?!?!?
A meaning yes, it's okay!. b meaning, no, it isn't!Www@FoodAQ@Com
Are you vegan because:
A) you defy the mistreatment of animals
or
B) You don't think it's right to make "use" of animals in any way, shape, or form
!?!?!?
A meaning yes, it's okay!. b meaning, no, it isn't!Www@FoodAQ@Com
i would say that depends on the reason you became a vegan!. if you're a vegan for your health, having dairy once or twice isn't going to give you a heart attack!.!.!.it just makes you a vegetarian!.
if you're a vegan because of animal exploitation, it would come down to the situation and whether or not you really feel that it is okay in that instance!. of course, if you are consuming milk, eggs, etc!. you are not a vegan, but you already know that i'm sure!.
if i were in your position i would probably have no problem with eating it, because my stance is against animal cruelty and knowing that animals aren't dying for my nourishment!.!.!.!.!.!.but i am a vegetarian, not vegan!.
just make sure you think this through!.!.!.!.you don't want to regret your choice later!. it all depends on your personal opinion!.
EDIT: i just wanted to add that you can't say that you "would still be a vegan, just not on that day!." if that were the case any of us could say, "i'm a vegetarian, just not on fridays when i eat fish!." obviously that wouldn't make sense!.!.!.!.!.you're either vegan all the time or you're not vegan at all!.
Okay, what if someone said, "I am a vegan except for on Christmas and the 4th of July"!? They're not vegan!.!.!.!.because they are KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY consuming animal products regardless of the frequency at which they consume them!.
EDIT: you're defending this pretty strongly, so i think you already know what you want to do and you're looking to us for justification!. you seem to have your mind made up!.!.!.!.that's fine!.!.!.!.i mean really, there is NOTHING wrong with having that opinion!. if you want to eat dairy, eat dairy!.!.!.!.but just make sure you're fine with being a vegetarian instead of a vegan!. when it comes down to it, you're helping animals either way!.!.!.!.no one here is going to shun you for eating dairy, but people will have no shame in informing you that you're no longer a vegan!. just a thought!.!.!.!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
if you're a vegan because of animal exploitation, it would come down to the situation and whether or not you really feel that it is okay in that instance!. of course, if you are consuming milk, eggs, etc!. you are not a vegan, but you already know that i'm sure!.
if i were in your position i would probably have no problem with eating it, because my stance is against animal cruelty and knowing that animals aren't dying for my nourishment!.!.!.!.!.!.but i am a vegetarian, not vegan!.
just make sure you think this through!.!.!.!.you don't want to regret your choice later!. it all depends on your personal opinion!.
EDIT: i just wanted to add that you can't say that you "would still be a vegan, just not on that day!." if that were the case any of us could say, "i'm a vegetarian, just not on fridays when i eat fish!." obviously that wouldn't make sense!.!.!.!.!.you're either vegan all the time or you're not vegan at all!.
Okay, what if someone said, "I am a vegan except for on Christmas and the 4th of July"!? They're not vegan!.!.!.!.because they are KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY consuming animal products regardless of the frequency at which they consume them!.
EDIT: you're defending this pretty strongly, so i think you already know what you want to do and you're looking to us for justification!. you seem to have your mind made up!.!.!.!.that's fine!.!.!.!.i mean really, there is NOTHING wrong with having that opinion!. if you want to eat dairy, eat dairy!.!.!.!.but just make sure you're fine with being a vegetarian instead of a vegan!. when it comes down to it, you're helping animals either way!.!.!.!.no one here is going to shun you for eating dairy, but people will have no shame in informing you that you're no longer a vegan!. just a thought!.!.!.!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
Sweetie, you have to decide if your a vegan or a vegetarian!. I'm a vegetarian and I care where my eggs and dairy come from!. I'd see no problem with a vegetarian running a farm like you discribe, but they can't call themselfs vegans!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
Don't listen to people who are "you won't be vegan anymore blah blah blah" because it was your choice to become one and it's your choice to do what you want with that lifestyle!.
If you feel its okay to eat what those animals produced then eat it! If you feel like you'll be a hypocrite, then don't!. Just remember that it is your lifestyle choice and your decision on how YOU want to handle it!. So what if you break the rules!? Do what makes YOU happy!. Forget about other ppls' opinions!Www@FoodAQ@Com
If you feel its okay to eat what those animals produced then eat it! If you feel like you'll be a hypocrite, then don't!. Just remember that it is your lifestyle choice and your decision on how YOU want to handle it!. So what if you break the rules!? Do what makes YOU happy!. Forget about other ppls' opinions!Www@FoodAQ@Com
Well, you would not be a vegan, no matter how well the goat was kept - a vegan will not use any animal products!. As a veggie, you would want to consider what you would do with male offspring from your milking goats!. Same goes for cockerals from your hens!.
We have our own chickens, we can afford the space for cockerals as well in the old orchard!. We are very careful about how we source the chicks, and how we look after hens, only liftng abandoned eggs etc!. And of course giving them 10 years natural life and not 1 year egg production life!.
We will not milk from our rescue cows, thats an absolute non-starter as a vegetarian, i've no idea how you can think its right as a vegan!. What would we do with bull calves !?
As for this "Vegetarian dairy farm" you are visiting, I'm sorry, but they are not giving you the full picture!.
What happens to the bull calves they get !?
Where do they get thier dairy cows from !?
How do they get thier cows pregnant !?
What do they do with cows of non-calve baring age !?
There is NO market for "pet bull calves", they couldn't possibly sell them to go and be pets and every dairy farm has too many bulls to consider buying them in, all incemination is artificial!. Dairy bull calves do not product enough meat to be beef cattle!. Therefore they will likely go for veal or low quality leather products!. Either way, the bull calves will definately be killed!.
Believe me, we have 20 pet cows, dairies don't even bother offering us the bull calves, they are worth nothing, no one will buy them - there is no market for them - they cannot "screen buyers" for them, they ship them out for low-cost slaughter, as do ALL dairies!.
I wish you well, but i think you might have to apply a touch of realism to your plans!. In the UK for example, to own a non commercial farm you have to worth a few million ￡$$￡, no doubts about that!. You are going to have to be a pretty sucessful author to support that level of capital and annual expenditure!. Keeping cattle, goats, sheep and chickens is not picture-postcard scattering corn for the chick each morning!. Its up to your neck work, handling death on a regular basis and basing al your plans ( travel/holiday/work trips ) around the animals!. ( you will not find any farmers on the beach during the summer - they are working 365 days a year )Www@FoodAQ@Com
We have our own chickens, we can afford the space for cockerals as well in the old orchard!. We are very careful about how we source the chicks, and how we look after hens, only liftng abandoned eggs etc!. And of course giving them 10 years natural life and not 1 year egg production life!.
We will not milk from our rescue cows, thats an absolute non-starter as a vegetarian, i've no idea how you can think its right as a vegan!. What would we do with bull calves !?
As for this "Vegetarian dairy farm" you are visiting, I'm sorry, but they are not giving you the full picture!.
What happens to the bull calves they get !?
Where do they get thier dairy cows from !?
How do they get thier cows pregnant !?
What do they do with cows of non-calve baring age !?
There is NO market for "pet bull calves", they couldn't possibly sell them to go and be pets and every dairy farm has too many bulls to consider buying them in, all incemination is artificial!. Dairy bull calves do not product enough meat to be beef cattle!. Therefore they will likely go for veal or low quality leather products!. Either way, the bull calves will definately be killed!.
Believe me, we have 20 pet cows, dairies don't even bother offering us the bull calves, they are worth nothing, no one will buy them - there is no market for them - they cannot "screen buyers" for them, they ship them out for low-cost slaughter, as do ALL dairies!.
I wish you well, but i think you might have to apply a touch of realism to your plans!. In the UK for example, to own a non commercial farm you have to worth a few million ￡$$￡, no doubts about that!. You are going to have to be a pretty sucessful author to support that level of capital and annual expenditure!. Keeping cattle, goats, sheep and chickens is not picture-postcard scattering corn for the chick each morning!. Its up to your neck work, handling death on a regular basis and basing al your plans ( travel/holiday/work trips ) around the animals!. ( you will not find any farmers on the beach during the summer - they are working 365 days a year )Www@FoodAQ@Com
I think you're either vegan or you're not- their aren't any exceptions!. I agree with the second answerer who made the point about eating meat if the animal died of natural causes!.
If you make a moral (and possibly health) decision not to eat or drink the stuff you should not be craving it!. If you really want ice cream or eggs then go out and have some, this is just one of many justifications you can make!.
My answer is no, even if the animals are pets and they practically give the stuff to you on a plate I still say no; either you're a vegan or you are not!. Middle ground you suggest to me = not a vegan!.
Good luck though, I would love to own a farm!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
If you make a moral (and possibly health) decision not to eat or drink the stuff you should not be craving it!. If you really want ice cream or eggs then go out and have some, this is just one of many justifications you can make!.
My answer is no, even if the animals are pets and they practically give the stuff to you on a plate I still say no; either you're a vegan or you are not!. Middle ground you suggest to me = not a vegan!.
Good luck though, I would love to own a farm!.Www@FoodAQ@Com
Regardless if they are vegetarian *owners* of the animals and treat the animals kindly!. The fact is, the milk the cows & goats produce are meant for their offspring, not for your consumption!. also, a key factor would be that if this animals are producing milk, they are most likely being forcefully inseminated/pregnated (i!.e!. raped)!. Not only is this cruel, the forceful insemination, but the dairy you would be consuming would be stolen from the offspring of the animals, denying these calfs and kids (baby goats) their essential, natural nutrition!. It may be probable that these animals are in fact not producing offspring and are artificially inseminated (again, raped)!.
Technically you would not be a vegan!.This is because veganism is a not a temporary characteristic, where you could vegan for 6 out of 7 days a week!. Its basically all or nothing!. In my opinion, I don't how you could desire to eat such animal products!.
In regards to *owning* your own animals, if you ate the ovulations of chickens, you would not be considered a vegan, respectfully!. If you drank/stole the milk intended for a calf, you would not be vegan!. If you had your own dairy cows artificially inseminated you would be basically having your cows raped, which itself is a cruel procedure!.
In my personal opinion (again, not reflected of all vegans), the act of "owning" another creature, is exercising the practice of human domination over the animal kingdom, a very un-vegan act!. Now say, if you adopted the animals, and treated them as companions, not exploiting them for milk intended for their offspring, or consuming their menstrual remains, then you would be doing these animals a tremendous favor, by *saving* them from another farmer who may try to cruelly exploit them!. In this regard, you would be doing a very kind and compassionate action towards these animals and it would not be considered *owning* them or exercising human domination over them!.
Truthfully, it sounds as if you may be still sitting on the fence between veganism and vegetarianism!. Which is okay!. We all tremendously appreciate the fact that you don't desire eat the flesh of animals, sincerely!. If I were you I would reflect upon, why i became vegan in the first place!. also, i would ponder over, how i would personally feel if I were one of those cows, who was being exploited for my lactation!.
Goodluck and I have faith that you will make the right decision!.
EDIT: I seriously doubt that the dairy farmers keep this animals around and *hope* that they procreate, so that they can produce milk!. I hope you realize that cows don't naturally produce milk unless they have given birth!. Therefore to have a dairy farm, you need to have pregnant cows!. To have cows become pregnant you either breed cows, countinuely around the clock to ensure adequate milk production, to therefore turn a profit!. (Fact is dairy cows have a lifespan of 20 years, but cows used in dairy farms only survive up to 6 years because the tremendous stress put upon their body through continually being impregnated!. If you don't impregnate the cows, you artificially inseminate them!. Which is tricking the cows body to thinking it is pregnate to produce milk!. Both forms are to considered rape, as both forms require sexual manipulation!. This are the only ways cows can produce milk!. I know a lot of people are under the misconception that cows, naturally just lactate, but cows and humans are similiar (as are all mammals) they only lactate after giving birth!. Therefore to have a dairy cow you need to have cows pregnant!. Now you might be confused thinking that there is another way around this but there isn't!. That is why the famously coined slogan goes "Meat is Murder and Dairy is Rape!." Now there is only one of two things you can do with the by-products of milk (i!.e!. baby calfs)!. You can sell them as veal, or you can over populate your farm with baby calfs!. The latter isn't the norm on what happens!. To turn a profit, calfs are sold for their meat!. This is how the veal industry thrives!. I sincerely doubt that there is such a high demand for baby calfs that are going to be sold to "people who treat them well and not have them killed" it is a fact that the dairy industry supports the meat industry through the excesses by-product of milk production (i!.e!. baby calfs) Yes it possible that there may be left over milk (that is meant for a calf or baby goat, not humans) but the fact is: it is a farm, they don't hope the animals get pregnant to derive milk from these animals, instead they forcefully breed these animals (exploitation) to therefore turn a profit off of them!. If you don't believe research yourself, instead of asking people who make a living of exploiting the animals, as they will have a plethora of excuses to defend their actions!. Truth is this: I wouldn't want to spend my entire life being forcefully impregnated, continually, over and over again– just so my body can create milk, which someone is going to steal from my offspring to turn a profit!. Would you!?Www@FoodAQ@Com
Technically you would not be a vegan!.This is because veganism is a not a temporary characteristic, where you could vegan for 6 out of 7 days a week!. Its basically all or nothing!. In my opinion, I don't how you could desire to eat such animal products!.
In regards to *owning* your own animals, if you ate the ovulations of chickens, you would not be considered a vegan, respectfully!. If you drank/stole the milk intended for a calf, you would not be vegan!. If you had your own dairy cows artificially inseminated you would be basically having your cows raped, which itself is a cruel procedure!.
In my personal opinion (again, not reflected of all vegans), the act of "owning" another creature, is exercising the practice of human domination over the animal kingdom, a very un-vegan act!. Now say, if you adopted the animals, and treated them as companions, not exploiting them for milk intended for their offspring, or consuming their menstrual remains, then you would be doing these animals a tremendous favor, by *saving* them from another farmer who may try to cruelly exploit them!. In this regard, you would be doing a very kind and compassionate action towards these animals and it would not be considered *owning* them or exercising human domination over them!.
Truthfully, it sounds as if you may be still sitting on the fence between veganism and vegetarianism!. Which is okay!. We all tremendously appreciate the fact that you don't desire eat the flesh of animals, sincerely!. If I were you I would reflect upon, why i became vegan in the first place!. also, i would ponder over, how i would personally feel if I were one of those cows, who was being exploited for my lactation!.
Goodluck and I have faith that you will make the right decision!.
EDIT: I seriously doubt that the dairy farmers keep this animals around and *hope* that they procreate, so that they can produce milk!. I hope you realize that cows don't naturally produce milk unless they have given birth!. Therefore to have a dairy farm, you need to have pregnant cows!. To have cows become pregnant you either breed cows, countinuely around the clock to ensure adequate milk production, to therefore turn a profit!. (Fact is dairy cows have a lifespan of 20 years, but cows used in dairy farms only survive up to 6 years because the tremendous stress put upon their body through continually being impregnated!. If you don't impregnate the cows, you artificially inseminate them!. Which is tricking the cows body to thinking it is pregnate to produce milk!. Both forms are to considered rape, as both forms require sexual manipulation!. This are the only ways cows can produce milk!. I know a lot of people are under the misconception that cows, naturally just lactate, but cows and humans are similiar (as are all mammals) they only lactate after giving birth!. Therefore to have a dairy cow you need to have cows pregnant!. Now you might be confused thinking that there is another way around this but there isn't!. That is why the famously coined slogan goes "Meat is Murder and Dairy is Rape!." Now there is only one of two things you can do with the by-products of milk (i!.e!. baby calfs)!. You can sell them as veal, or you can over populate your farm with baby calfs!. The latter isn't the norm on what happens!. To turn a profit, calfs are sold for their meat!. This is how the veal industry thrives!. I sincerely doubt that there is such a high demand for baby calfs that are going to be sold to "people who treat them well and not have them killed" it is a fact that the dairy industry supports the meat industry through the excesses by-product of milk production (i!.e!. baby calfs) Yes it possible that there may be left over milk (that is meant for a calf or baby goat, not humans) but the fact is: it is a farm, they don't hope the animals get pregnant to derive milk from these animals, instead they forcefully breed these animals (exploitation) to therefore turn a profit off of them!. If you don't believe research yourself, instead of asking people who make a living of exploiting the animals, as they will have a plethora of excuses to defend their actions!. Truth is this: I wouldn't want to spend my entire life being forcefully impregnated, continually, over and over again– just so my body can create milk, which someone is going to steal from my offspring to turn a profit!. Would you!?Www@FoodAQ@Com