Veg*n - abortion?!
Veg*n - abortion?
someone touched on this in a question the other day... For me my veganisim helps cement my pro choice stance on abortion.
I don't think life, human life in particular is sacred and so i would weigh things up with suffering. I see no moral obligation in dragging a child with no catlaloge of experiances, hopes or memories into a world and family that mite not want it, just because it is human and should be given life.
If there was more suffering in having the child, if lives were wrecked etc... i would just as soon see the child aborted if that was the parents choice.
It wasn't until i became vegan that my opinion on this matter became clear....
What about you? How does your veg*nisim effect your stance on this political hot potato? Additional Details
1 day ago
If there's a vegan-vegetarian section that isn't in the food and drink section i'll gladly move this question. I'd like it to be answered by veg*ns though and the vegetarian vegan section seems like the place to find people like that...
1 day ago
purnimacresent - very interesting. Though u don't eat eggs not because i worry about the potential life, but because of the suffering and exploitation of the animals who produce those eggs. Like i said, not because i think life is sacred but because i rate things on suffering.
1 day ago
a few people have saif they can't see a conection. I'm not sure i'm implying one. I'm just curiouse as to how one set of beliefs lives alongside another. For example i explain how i can be pro choice yet care so much about not eating eggs... while someone else might well be pro life yet not give a damn about what happens in a factory farm. Not exactly a conection but i'm just intersted in how people fit both perspectives together, whatever they may be... and again, because i'm prodominatly interested in Veg*n responces, i feel it would be wasted putting it into another forum, interesting stuff so far
Answers: 1 day ago
If there's a vegan-vegetarian section that isn't in the food and drink section i'll gladly move this question. I'd like it to be answered by veg*ns though and the vegetarian vegan section seems like the place to find people like that...1 day ago
purnimacresent - very interesting. Though u don't eat eggs not because i worry about the potential life, but because of the suffering and exploitation of the animals who produce those eggs. Like i said, not because i think life is sacred but because i rate things on suffering.1 day ago
a few people have saif they can't see a conection. I'm not sure i'm implying one. I'm just curiouse as to how one set of beliefs lives alongside another. For example i explain how i can be pro choice yet care so much about not eating eggs... while someone else might well be pro life yet not give a damn about what happens in a factory farm. Not exactly a conection but i'm just intersted in how people fit both perspectives together, whatever they may be... and again, because i'm prodominatly interested in Veg*n responces, i feel it would be wasted putting it into another forum, interesting stuff so far I AGREE COMPLETELY! Any moral philosophy should be about reducing or eliminating suffering!
Just as it's wrong for us to treat animals as objects for meat, milk and eggs, it's also wrong for any woman to be PHYSICALLY OWNED by the government for nine months.
But that's crazy isn't it? After all, a blob of cells is a "baby" and animals don't have feelings, right? : ) Does this relate to the vegan diet ? this is afterall the vegetarian and vegan section in the FOOD and DRINK forum.
To me, the 2 are completely unrelated. If you're a vegan and you abort or believe in abortion, you are VERY contradictory and hypocritical.
a vegan doesn't even eat EGGS because it's aPOTENTIAL life, but your willing to kill a human animal fetus that has already been given a heartbeat?
As far as I see it, a life is worth living. It deserves that chance to be adopted out into a loving home. In American and Canadian Society for sure, there is no reason not to do this for the child.
The ultimate good woul dbe to have one person live 9 months pregnant and adopt out-then to terminate a life, which is a lot more permanent for that person.
The only reason someone is pro choice is b.c they are no longer in the womb.
Women's Rights pro Life, is also very convincing (you can google this) that abortion promotes violence and disempowers women. and that's what they are fighting against.
If its a tubal pregnancy, fine abort-Any danger to the mother should be considered. But a form of birthcontrol? out of the question!
Being a vegan doesn't mean you place a cow above a human being. It means you treat them equally.
There's no way you can be a vegan and pro choice.
You'd not wear leather b.c it's made from dead cow, but you'd kill a human baby? Think about it dude.
It a no brainer when biology and science tells us we too, are animals.
EDITED TO ADD: interesting, though I suppose we would have to consider why someone is a vegan . Health? suffering? life-all of the above.
Although I do respect pro choice, I don't feel abortion is for the least suffering, if you had any idea how how a baby suffers being killed and tortured while aborting...if u saw the baby coming out, disfigured -you may change your mnd that labour isn't as hard as the child being tortured to death.
Again, adoption is a reality-my sister was adopted, and for that reason she is against abortion, b.c she feels her life has value andis glad her teenage bith mother didn't abort her. we can't judge someones life on how much they "may" suffer. Everyone suffers, it's life after all. we would hav eto abort all life forms under that ethics, as everyone has the potential to be abused. I am vegetarian and my opinion may be unpopular.
I believe abortion is morally wrong but it should be safe and legal because people are going to get them anyway.
My mother was a nurse she was always pro-choice. Once a daughter of her friend was getting an abortion and the family asked my mother to lend her support. My mother agreed to help. The first time they tried the procedure the doctor said "we can't do it today because the fetus is moving too much." My mother said the very thought if it made her sick to her stomach and she would never participate in an abortion again.
Go ahead and give me thumbs down if you like, but that's what really happened. My political views are basically liberal, but I personally have a hard time with that one. Like you I'm a vegan and I'm pro-choice. I don't actually see the two as being connected in any way.
I support a woman's right to control her own fertility, by legal abortion if necessary, eg when contraception fails, as it sometimes does.
People are very quick to shout hypocrite on this forum purnimacresent; I don't often do it myself, in fact I don't think I've ever done it before, but I think the true hypocrite is one who claims to be against all suffering but is prepared to see women condemned to death through criminalising abortion.
Whenever this question is raised on V&V several very young people with limited life experience inevitably answer this question by saying 'protection works, use it or don't have sex or go ahead with any pregnancy'.
I have had an abortion. Years ago I was in a desperate situation and could see no other way out. I have no regrets about the decision I took and never have had, though I wish the situation had never happened. I can tell you that if I had not been living in a country where abortion was legal I would have found a way to have that abortion somehow. That is what happens in countries where there is no legal abortion and it is what happened before abortion was legalised in other countries. Stories of backstreet abortionists and desperate women self aborting with knitting needles, coat hangers and other implements are horrific, but true. Countless women have died in this way.
It's poorer women who resort to such measures - well-off women have always been able to buy abortion, legal or not, and in any case can afford to provide for children.
It is ludicrous to talk of using abortion as contraception; nobody does that. Abortion is usually a difficult decision and is a hideous experience that no woman goes ahead with lightly.
Sorry Michaelus, none of that is an answer to your question. From your questions that you have clearly been considering a number of issues and clarifying your ideas recently, but I don't see the issues of veganism and abortion as in any way connected. im lacto-vegetarian(no dairy/meat/many other animal products) and i think that abortion should definately happen. i eat eggs beacuse the life hasn't formed yet. the baby has no conections, memories or personaltity at all so i think its better to kill before they are born .
The abortion should be peaceful and both parents should have a right to this. Difficult question to answer. I'm pro-abortion myself, but I totally understand how people can be against it too. I agree with you: we are talking about a life that's not yet begun, there is no past, no memories. Abortion isn't really ending anything, since nothing's begun. And I think in some cases it's best it never begins. If the child's life isn't going to be a happy one, because it wasn't wanted, because it's parents haven't good any money to raise it, or for many other possible reasons (like rape for example), I think it's best not to ever be born than to feel like you weren't wanted your whole life, and like you destroyed your parents lives.
Go vegan! I personally don't connect those two views, though i can see how some people would. it really depends on your reasons for being veg*n, how you would view abortion, or so i would think.
i am veg*n, not because i think all life is some sacred thing put here by god, but because i think all SENTIENT beings have a right to a life without unnecessary pain. since fetuses before 10 weeks have no higher brain function, and no ability to feel pain (though this is debatable) i would not consider them a person, and obviously not sentient; i would not hesitate to abort an unwanted pregnancy if i found i was less than 10 weeks pregnant.
after 10 weeks is a sticky subject for me. i think it would be a much harder decision for me to make, but if i wasn't ready, i dont think i could condemn a child to a life of hardship just because its mother wasnt economically or emotionally ready. contrary to what many people think on the topic, i have the utmost respect for life, and if i should chose to have children or adopt, i wont do so until i know i can provide a comfortable loving home.
i believe that abortion should remain legal for anyone would wants it, out of safety concerns for the women; as someone already mentioned, before abortion was legalized (and even now who can't access it) women would resort to all kinds of horrific methods to abort a fetus, many dying in the process. the way i see it, if someone was concerned about preserving life, wouldnt they rather at least have the woman live, rather than have both die?
regarding the idea of just waiting 9 months and giving the child up for adoption: this will still have a profound impact on the woman's life. if she is young she could be seen as a social leper, as youth pregnancy isnt exactly the most socially accepted situation. losing friends or even being disowned by parents is not uncommon. even if this isnt the case, after carrying a child for 9 months, the decision to give it up, even if it is better for the child, can become much harder. finally, while adoption rates are high, not all children are able to find a home.
that said, in my opinion, i think the argument should go the other way. i would think that if you are pro-life, and think life is such sacred thing to be preserved in all cases, how could you justify the murder and torture of millions of animals every year?
and in response to what someone said about vegans not eating eggs because its a potential life? actually most vegans dont eat eggs because of the treatment of the chickens (the mothers). chickens will continue producing eggs even if they arent fertilized, so, you buy unfertilized eggs from a grocery store; theres no chance of them developing into a chick.
not entirely on topic, but an interesting question, that i could go on about. but i think ill stop here. im pro choice. that doesn't mean that i think its okay for a woman to have 6 abortions and use it as a form of birth control, but if a girl is raped or if she is in a situation where the baby would not be loved/ welcomed into the world or couldn't be cared for properly, then i think its okay..
im vegan. You asked for our opinion on the two subjects, so I'll give it simply and unargumentatively...
for me vegan ideals (as I said in your other question, I'm not quite vegan yet, but I belive it is the best diet)..make pro-life the obvious philosophy, but I see where you are coming from too.. I'll just state my observations and thoughts, not to argue, but just for the sake of explaining them..
I would like to see abortion eliminated, not NECESSARILY by law, but in practice.. It is abhorrent to every part of me and I personally see it as no different than murder. What stage do you draw the line between a supposed "blob of tissue" and a "baby"? Is there some miraculous change that takes place in labor? Is there some biological change that happens during the birth process, turning a blob of tissue into a human being??? In that line of thinking, I guess if the government has a right to tell an adult that they cannot murder an adult or a 8 month old baby, then the government has a right to tell an adult they cannot murder a younger baby, just because it isn't born yet..
I also do not understand why people think about the poor teenage girl whose life will be supposedly wrecked (I bet you could find hundreds of women who had a baby while still a teenager, KEPT it and raised it and have no regrets) But they don't think about the fact that she has other options.. I have known since I was a girl of 16 that I will never bear my own biological children.. I know there are many many couples who are unable to have children, and would provide a loving home for one..
There are far too many girls and women being sexually promiscuous and wind up pregnant.. Whose fault is it? (don't go to rape, I'll get to that in a minutet).. Do two wrongs make a right? In MOST cases, I simply cannot see how abortion is NOT selfishness.
There are TWO instances in which I would not CONDEMN someone for having an abortion (though I wouldn't even in those circumstanses) and I would not support any anti-abortion legislaton that did NOT make allowances for these circumstanses.
1. When the mother's life is at risk (if you have to chose between one life and another life, well.. then you have to choose, don't you?)
2. Rape. (Although again, I don't think a second wrong will make the first one right.. but I do understand why a girl/woman would make that decision.)
So these are my views.. just wanted to put them out there.. just because their different than anyone elses, doesn't mean I'm preaching or berating.. I'm just expressing my views.. You don't feel like human life is sacred? You do however feel that animal life is sacred? I hope you never become a doctor. Life is sacred no matter whether it is human or animal. Yes, humans have the ability to make conscious choices and that leads to ill choices that make up suffering in society. However, I think there is suffering with life no matter what cognizant thoughts are involved. This is the part of vegan beliefs that I do not understand. To say that human life is not sacred is a scary and very hypocritcal thought. How would you feel if your daughter or son was dying and the only medication was a product that was a direct animal product and the doctor said sorry I will not prescribe it because I feel animal life is more sacred to hers/his. This is what you saying in a nutshell and it is a scary philosophy.
I think the vegan belief of lessening animal suffering by not particiapting in the animal industry is commendable, but like anything else you can take it too far.
Also, to say you beleive in abortion, but do not eat eggs because tof the potential of life is a stark contrast and a very hypocrital statement. To say such conflicting statements lessens the credibility of your arguements. There have been several children born into this world that might have fit your defination that if abortion was available then it would have been easier to abort them because of difficulities. A lot of these people have made a huge difference on society. Beethoven being one of them.
Also, let me ask you a question: since you do not beleive in suffering. If the local deer/elk popualtion is so thick that they are having trouble finding food and some are starving is it okay to go in and humanly hunt and destroy a certain number to bring that population back into balance? You did say you hated to see suffering. However, I do feel like i know what your answer will be. You see, there is a big controversy over when life begins, but let me tell you this: an unborn child (say 5 months in the womb) can yawn, cry, stretch, blink, and have the hiccups. If it can have these brain functions, who is to say that child cannot feel what is happening to it. Doctors are also able to measure their brain waves...
With that in mind, murder is murder is murder.
Also, my aunt and sister-in-law are physically unable to have children. I know what kind of suffering they went through over this, and if a woman told them that she had a one night stand and decided to have an abortion, my aunt and sister would spit in her face.
There is adoption. There are people out there dying to have children that will never get them.
My vegetarianism does not effect my stance on this. I never have supported the murder of human beings, especially ones that aren't given the choice to live or die. LIFE is sacred...PERIOD. Weather it's human, or your cat.
Finally, if I took a pregnant dog on a sidewalk, forced it to give birth, then drove pencils into the heads of the premature puppies, I woud be thrown in prison. Not only would I be thrown in prison, but every person on this thread would kick my a** if they saw me doing that. Now, explain to me the difference. That dog might not be able to take care of those pups either, but that dog will try. I was pro-choice (there is no such thing as pro-abortion, BTW) long before I was vegan. I believe a woman should decide when and if she becomes a mother.
As for how I reconcile my veganism and pro-choice beliefs: I advocate for actual lives over potential lives. The animals feel pain and suffer for weeks, months, or years. Since the vast majority of abortions take place before the cerebral cortex has been formed, the embryo/fetus does not feel pain. Furthermore, it's 10 billion animals and 1.5 million abortions a year--which is a greater "killing"?
As for eggs, I refuse to eat eggs not because they're chicken embryos or fetuses--they aren't because they're not fertilized, so I guess you could say it's a chicken's "period"--but because the hens who are caged for their eggs are the most abused animals in the whole horrible panoply of animal industry.
I refuse to drink milk because (1) it's a product of reproductive slavery. The cows are kept constantly pregnant so they keep producing milk; (2) the calves are taken from their mothers at birth, and the male calves become veal; (3) the milk is stolen from the calves for human consumption; (4) after her production declines, she is slaughtered. i am not a vegan but i think that animals and humans are the same if you abort a child you are killing an animal