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Answers: Since the vegan ideaology extends at least as far as insects (as evidenced by the disapproval of eating honey) how does a vegan rectify the killing of billions apon billions of other bugs and worms during the production of any type of grain or vegetable? Why is killing those bugs acceptable to produce grains and vegetables, but it is unacceptable to eat honey collected from a working (and unharmed) hive of bees?

Organic, you say? Think again. You aren't really naive enough to think the organic producer lets the bugs and worms run rampant across the farm and he only collects what is left, are you? Organic produce has insect control a plenty (and actually uses far more pesticides than conventional, but that's another discussion) but the materials used are simply organic-approved.

So how do you remedy this? Seems impossible to me.

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I agree. Where does it stop?

I know people should eat healthy, but how far can one go.

Maybe it is leading up to the "food disk" that they ate on "Buck Rodger in the 25th century"

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It's called do what you can. I'm no vegan but as a vegetarian or as you... there is no guarantee that you won't be involved in an accident when you go to the store in your car and possibly kill another human being in the process... so what do you do? you aren't into killing people I hope. Well by your reasoning you should never set foot in a car because of the chance you will hurt someone... but you still drive. You watch for other cars and try not to hit anyone... right? In other words... you do what you can. That's all this is about as a vegetarian or a vegan... " What can I do to make a difference?" "How can I reduce my footprint and still live in society?" What it comes down to is this... you find the medium that will allow you to live with your conscience and still be able to function as a human in society... that's it. Again, you do what you can. Understand?

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First of all, the amount of bugs that would be killed if you ate meat would be greater because of all the bugs that had to die to produce all the plant matter that the cow was fed his/her entire life. So eating plants directly still kills some insects, yes, but not as many an omnivore diet would.

Why do I find the killing of any amount of bugs acceptable. Because I need to kill some in order to live. The idea to to not do any more harm than is necessary. I don't need to eat meat to live and be healthy, so I don't.

In this world it's impossible to eat completely vegan, the idea is to do as little harm as possible, even if you are forced by your own bodily needs to do some.

Me's Troll - Just pointing out why someone who likes both insects and being alive might choose a vegetarian diet over being an omnivore

"You're just claiming that your way is better than the meat eaters way. You're trying to justify a shortcoming or deflect your guilt. That's more than obvious"

You've just turned an intellectual argument into a personal attack. Who's the one getting emotional here? I'm not even a vegan, I was just trying to explain their point of view. Also, I only said a vegan lifestyle is better in terms of killing less bugs, I didn't mean it in a general sweeping way like you imply.

Some people have morals that are impossible to attain. Christians, for example, have a whole set of rules that in modern day life are impossible to keep. People who are concerned for the environment try to "lessen their footprint" not live a completely pollution-free life. The idea there, and with vegans and with many other sets of morals is to just do the best you can. I don't see why that's so hard to grasp.

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That's exactly it.

It's about avoiding exploitation or harm that is avoidable, intentional, premeditated on purpose, by choice and unecessarily for fun.

The argument that I can't do everything so I won't do anything is so lame - it's just an excuse to be lazy and self centered.

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You've convinced me!

I'm gonna give up on making the world better. Forget freedom and oportunity. What use have they for me?

That American idea of the people making a better life doesn't fit the plan of the One World Gov.

.........hold the red star proudly high in hand.

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Ok how about this one then : )

A cow breathes in air, then breathes out that air, then a plant breathes the air and breathes it out, then a vegan breathes the air...

zomg! your ideal suckszor!!

Vegans and vegetarians are just doing what they can in thier own life, everyone has thier own level of participation and i dont think its very nice to dig at them for doing the best they can.

and just because the current state of other peoples participation in civilization makes it hard to follow it to the letter is no reason to just give up and trash everything.

if a person could never bench press a million kilos is that any reason to never do weights at all?

if a person cant learn everything there is to learn on the planet in a lifetime is that any reason to just give up learning?

besides, what gives you the right to judge? are you a vegan who doesnt eat grains or vegetables? how can you dictate this to vegans if you have never done it yourself?

I dont get what this question is about, its not going to change any vegans standpoint, and your opinion is already decided so its not like your actually asking for information.

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If it's alright with you, I'd rather not starve.

People don't need honey, bees do.

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Sounds like a double standard. Some will call the insect deaths unavoidable, which of course is just an excuse. Bees brains aren't sophisticated enough to register pain anyways.

"You aren't really naive enough to think the organic producer lets the bugs and worms run rampant across the farm and he only collects what is left, are you?"

They aren't naive, they have conditioned themselves to ignore it.

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SST is not a particularly astute vegan. But then which vegans are?

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